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12-05-2001 17:05

Posted by:
Chris Dillman

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Hi

As the maker of BANG!... which is sort of like TNT....
Funny how close the names are also :)

Im going to look the whole thing over and give a bunch of feed back.

First off TNT is very nice look.
Great job.
It has and impressive feature list.

I want to say that up front since many time all developers here is what bad about their product and not what is good about it.

Questions....

Is the Sprite engine sprite world or custom?

What is the MOD playing engine?






12-05-2001 17:06

Posted by:
Chris Dillman

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Posting system

Ok this posting system... needs a log in...
a way for me to not have to type in my name and email
every time I post...
Unless I missed it and thereis one?

12-05-2001 17:08

Posted by:
Chris D

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more posting

Posting system needs ""

I suggest contacting idevgames.com
they can give you a spot on the site and they can host
forums for you.

You will get more users that way.

The posting software is also better.

12-05-2001 17:09

Posted by:
ChirsD

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Debugger?

Is there a debugger in TNT?

12-05-2001 17:35

Posted by:
Chris D

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Feed back.

1. TNT looks a bit to much like programming in the
scary sense of the word. Work on simplifing the UI
and IDe system even more. Study Real Basic for good examples.

Real programmers will make there own tools/game.
The users you that I think you are targeting want and need a lot more hand holding.

So onward...

2. Auto indenting would be nice.
This is BASIC not C/C++ you don't need the
control of formating that you need in C++.

Auto formating will help new programmer learn better
structure and indenting styles etc.

3. If I edit code in the ide and then switch to another panel it asks me to save.
I think it stead it should ask when you try and close the window.
That would be proper DOC behavior.

4. ID/Numbers for resource
Add Strings for resource name.
Most people think better with name that referring to ID 1000 as the player.
Don't think like a programmer when make a tool like TNT.
The end users for such a project are not programmers.

5. Hardware acceleration might be nice.
Better it it could be used to spin the camera and or rotate sprites.

6. Cross platform might be nice.

7. Not sure why but rez lib is moving icon on my desktop...
PEOPLE HATE THAT.
People will refuse to use TNT or run games made it just for that one reason alone.
A nice fix is by default to present the end use of a game with a Dialog on start up asking such things
as would you like me to switch screen res etc.
It would also be nice to play a game in a window.

8. AMOS guys I think they are part of the kilck and create team and are still make tools for PC.
They have a new 3D game making app out called Jamba 3D ( or I think it was called that at some point )
A mac version is supposed to some out at some point.

9. Lets see...
As for making things easier... Im not sure if you have these features...
a. a tools for doing animation that lets the user align animation frames of different sizes
and for setting things like say animation styles and movement type and hit points etc
so that they don't have to code such things.
TNT could use a more OOP approach to game programming or to resource making.

10. A path editor so that users can draw paths for sprite to follow would be nice.
If it can do curves also it will let users make organic looking paths/sprite movement
that would be very hard to program easily.

11. Compound sprites...
Sprites made of of other sprites.
Like a torso and legs or a monster with a ball spinning about it.
The child sprites would follow the parent spirtes but each would have there own
movement behavior/movement patterns.

Ok that is it for now and once again NICE job :)












12-05-2001 17:36

Posted by:
Chris D

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Get a mailing list


Get a mailing list even a free one through say yahoo.
They always seem more efficient then forums
though not as public....

12-05-2001 17:37

Posted by:
Chris D

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Get a mailing list


Get a mailing list even a free one through say yahoo.
They always seem more efficient then forums
though not as public....

12-05-2001 18:45

Posted by:
Mark Tully

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Wow!

That's a lot of feedback! Where do I start?!

I'll try and cover all your questions, forgive my conciseness!

It's a custom sprite engine that uses encoded sprites in 16-bit, supporting translucency and other special effects. The MOD playing is done my MADLib, PlayerPro's music library by Antoine Rosett (www.quadmation.com).

As for the forums, there's currently no login, but there will be soon. The new forum should serve us better than a mailing list, but if it doesn't we'll get one as needed (like when we have lots of users!) ;)

There's currently no debugger, but there will be eventually. Auto indenting may be added, but it's not a bad habit for users to get into anyway if they're going to begin using other language like C/C++.

As for holding the users hand more, I believe that holding their hand too much can stifle their creativity. There obviously has to be a balance, if we get a lot of feedback wanting more handholding, we will add more handholding, but I we currently have no plans to massively change the way TNT Basic works. Of course it depends on user feedback, if anyone has specific feature requests or comments on this, please respond!

The issue of having to save when switching tabs in Hieroglyph will be remedied shortly.

As for resources, you can already name them, you're asked for a name when you create one and you can change it by selecting it and choosing "get info..." from the resource menu.

We do have h/w acceleration in TNT Basic, but we do not *currently* have support for screen/image transformations. If this is a popularly requested feature we may add it.

Cross platform is unlikely because it's a lot of work, however we're not going to rule it out. For the time being we are focussed on making TNT Basic the best it can be on the Mac.

Sorry, if you're desktop icons are getting shuffled, we'll look into that and try and fix it. A future version of TNT Basic will also give the user options of preferred resolutions for TNT Basic games for when there's two reses with of the same size.

We're aware of Dark Basic on the PC, and I've heard something about a 3D thing too. When Dark Basic comes to the Mac we want to be in a position to beat it. All the more reason why we should concentrate on the Mac instead of going crossplatform ;)

An animation tool with recording of sprite movement from the mouse has been planned and will show up in a future version of TNT Basic.

Compound sprites have been considered also, but were left out of the initial release.

Honestly, our "to do" list and "Would be nice" list for TNT Basic is massive!

It's up to you lot as our users to help us choose what goes in, this kind of feedback helps us and helps TNT Basic!

I hope I've addressed some of your queries there Chris, thanks for the feedback, if anyone has any questions about this then please follow up!

12-05-2001 18:53

Posted by:
ERaZer

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ClickTeam

ClickTeam(the creators of AMOS) is creating a tool called Jamagic for Mac and Linux now(its out on PC) and its pretty good. I was supposed to write some feedback here but Chris took all the good ones :)
Well, except one minor thing, support for icons on the InputSprocket things(there might be but I dont think so).

12-05-2001 21:09

Posted by:
Chris D

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Other tools

Things that coem cose to AMOS or atleast the idea
since I have never played with it.

BANG! 2D
BANG! 3D ( These are mine )
Dim3D
Ricore
Real Basic

PC IDE....
Dark Basic ( BTW these guys have out a RAD studio
for 3D games with little or no programming...
can't recall the name... )

Jmagic... it out for PC.
a MAC and PC version were annouced about two years ago.

Blitz basic.



12-05-2001 21:32

Posted by:
Chris D

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Follow up.


1. I think I would find TNT useless with out a debugger :-) and very frustrating if I was a beginner.

2. Reource names.
Im under the impression that if I want to use a resource
in my code I need to reference it with a number...
example.... sudo code..

Picture p;
p = GetResource( 100);
DrawPicture( p );

What I am suggesting is that it is much easier to do
Picture p;
p = GetResource( "Player1");
DrawPicture( p );

3. I don't think dark basic is EVER coming to mac.
unless you know something different?
Last thing I saw it still did not have windows based text editor bult in.
The engine is nice looking though.

4. To see a list of what people are looking for re through the old posts in the BANG! forum on
idevgames.com... B! being very much like TNT in concept.

5. What do you have/ have planned for hardware acceleration?
Rave? Open GL?

6.
"As for holding the users hand more, I believe that holding their hand too much can stifle their creativity."

Incorrect...

Hand holding to ease the learning cure will get people up to speed and more creative faster.
What is really need is this...
Not hand hold on everything like say RB does.
But hand holding that scales down to very low level.
Easy of use that scales as the users experience and needs scale.
The easier it is to use in the first place the more people will play with it.
After that they will think of what they want to do and if you plan it right those features will be sitting there waiting.
It is like having multiple levels of abstraction for the IDE...
Examples...
1. Mostly point and click
2. Light event driven Scripting
3. Full game scripting
4. C/C++ plug ins.

7. I would like it if you would regularly post a list of what your working on
and what is planned for the future.

A developers log might also be fun.
idevgames can help handle that.

7. Also I personally would like to know some back ground on the programmers...
Level of experience etc... But you can email me personally.
Actually I will email you since my mail server is freaking out this after noon since some one is spamming
through it... :P

12-06-2001 10:36

Posted by:
Socrates

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Object Orientation

Mark, I think your product looks very interesting, but before I get to the compliments part I'm going to have to slag it off because that's frankly going to be more useful to you.

There are a number of features that would be nice, but they all pale in comparison to object oriented programming support. Chris Dillman mentioned this, but you didn't appear to pick up on it.

Why is this so important? Granted that probably yhe majority of your target audience won't even know what it is, and yes it's scary for a beginner, but it is virtually impossible to write a big program without it. REALbasic is a greatly flawed product, but it's classes and methods system is such a saving grace as to make it stand out well ahead of it's competitors at the moment, and until you support that I can't see myself switching.

Also, the next most important thing is speed. Almost any features of the form sprite rotation, image manipulation, 3D, etc (and you should have those btw) can be implemented BY THE USER if you make the basic engine fast enough. REALbasic's policy is to make the engine dog slow and then try and implement everything the user would like as a single command. I find though that I'm one of these people who finds out that a language can't do something and then comes up with a great idea for a game that needs exactly that feature and can't do without it. You'll never do everything a user wants by building it in, that's what click and play and the other 'game building' programs tried to do. Eugh...

Now that's out of the way...

The network support is fantastic, I know you didn't write the underlying engine, but it's implementation is spot on. REALbasic has more low level support and can no doubt do anything yours can, but only with a few pages of obscure program (and the bugs, oh the terrible bugs).

The sprite engine is nice, if a little crude at present. Wipes the floor with RB's attempt though, just try doing trlanslucency effects with that. (I haven't found out yet if you support collision detection, I assume you don't, and that would certainly be a nice feature that RB has already).

Sound and input spocket support are great, you should support custom user interfaces for the latter though, in fact the whole escape to pause thing with non-customiseable menu options is a bit restrictive.

Very nice job overall, but get to it with the OOP, it's important!

12-06-2001 11:17

Posted by:
John Treece-Birch

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Re: Object Orientation

I agree that OOP is great and building a large project without can become a nightmare very easily but TNT Basic was intended to be for the beginner who would only be working on a smallish project and it can be very confusing if you are just starting out.

However, since we've already had two requests for it though I guess we could start looking into doing a TNT Basic Professional that does things like OOP. We've only just finished the first release though so I wouldn't hold you breath.

Obviously, we are going to look into making the underlying engine as fast as possible but I'll be surprised if we'll ever get it fast enough to support sprite rotation. Sprite rotation and scaling will be added at some point in the future hopefully when we write an OpenGL based sprite engine. This will also improve the transparency effects. We do already support pixel perfect sprite collision detection if you look in the Collisions section of the Help.

Anyway, thanks for the input and thanks for trying and testing TNT Basic. Your feedback is very much appreciated.

John

12-06-2001 13:05

Posted by:
Socrates

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Just classes, that's all I ask...

You don't really need to add much (spoken like someone who has never tried to program anything :)

All that's required is support for classes into which you can put variables and procedures that will be local to the class. It needn't interfere with the structure of the rest of the language. New users needn't even worry about it.

I disagree slightly that it's confusing, it's very intuitive to use OOP once you understand it.

Normal programming:

shipX(13) = shipX(13) + 4

OOP:

ship(13).X = ship(13).X + (4)

or even...

ship(13).moveX(4)

pretty intuitive if you ask me. If you want to move something, tell the something.

I don't actually like REALbasic's extra junk, I've never really bothered with events and what have you (except the built in ones for the GUI), but classes are a godsend, and I don't see that they can do any harm.

Thanks for the swift response btw

12-06-2001 13:09

Posted by:
Socrates

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Just classes, that's all I ask...

You don't really need to add much (spoken like someone who has never tried to program anything :)

All that's required is support for classes into which you can put variables and procedures that will be local to the class. It needn't interfere with the structure of the rest of the language. New users needn't even worry about it.

I disagree slightly that it's confusing, it's very intuitive to use OOP once you understand it.

Normal programming:

shipX(13) = shipX(13) + 4

OOP:

ship(13).X = ship(13).X + (4)

or even...

ship(13).moveX(4)

pretty intuitive if you ask me. If you want to move something, tell the something.

I don't actually like REALbasic's extra junk, I've never really bothered with events and what have you (except the built in ones for the GUI), but classes are a godsend, and I don't see that they can do any harm.

Thanks for the swift response btw

12-06-2001 13:10

Posted by:
Socrates

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Just classes, that's all I ask...

You don't really need to add much (spoken like someone who has never tried to program anything :)

All that's required is support for classes into which you can put variables and procedures that will be local to the class. It needn't interfere with the structure of the rest of the language. New users needn't even worry about it.

I disagree slightly that it's confusing, it's very intuitive to use OOP once you understand it.

Normal programming:

shipX(13) = shipX(13) + 4

OOP:

ship(13).X = ship(13).X + (4)

or even...

ship(13).moveX(4)

pretty intuitive if you ask me. If you want to move something, tell the something.

I don't actually like REALbasic's extra junk, I've never really bothered with events and what have you (except the built in ones for the GUI), but classes are a godsend, and I don't see that they can do any harm.

Thanks for the swift response btw

12-06-2001 13:24

Posted by:
John Treece-Birch

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Re: Object Orientation

Oh, I thought when you were suggesting OOP that you meant the whole lot (inheritance, virtual functions etc). Now, that can be confusing to a beginner.

Data encapsulation is on our list of things to do (which is about a mile long and growing) but unfortunately I think it will be a while before it gets implemented.

Thanks again,
John

12-06-2001 15:13

Posted by:
Socrates

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Ah...

Some form of inheritance would be nice, i.e. the ability to make superclasses of an existing class, but I appreciate that multiple inheritance would be a right pain to implement, and even RB doesn't seem to have that one yet, so I'm not inclined to critisise.

Simple (single parent) inheritance shouldn't be any harder than implementing classes in the first place I wouldn't have thought.

Anyway, I'm glad you haves some plans for data encapsulation, you'll get yourself an extra star for that when it comes in I think :-)

12-06-2001 16:18

Posted by:
Chris D

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1. If you add sprite rotation and open GL blitting...
Im not sure how you can still do pixel level hit detection
quickly...

Im working on this problem for B! right now

2. SEED issues...
not that I have tested anything but...
is TNT a compiler?
Or a byte code compiler?
or a interpreter?

3. Does TNt have the concept of reciveing
and posting events to objects?

Basically a really good way to get speed it to eliminate
as much polling as you can.

4. Do you think you could make Project Magellan TNT?
See my company... http://www.plaidworld.com

Are the blitters fast enough to run at like 40fps
on a G3/233 at 16bit with multiple layers of parallax
and over draw?

5. What are you using to draw sprites,
example RLE in codeing?

6. What is TNT being written in... C/C++?

7. You missed answer my last big post :-)

8. I do think RB has come a long way over the last year when I have been playing with it... in version 4 or 5 I expect we will see a new compiler in RB that generates good code unlike the crap it is based on now.
RB is a product that is in the process of being saved over the last year. More and more Im having less and less complaints with it.

Also if you want to do games with right now and have fast sprite with alpha it is easiest to use RB3D.
You get hardware blitting etc.
I have sample apps of doing a bunch of stuff this way
if anyone wants them.

currently that is one of the fastest ways to get a game up and running on a mac.

9. Cocoa BITES... IMHO after using it for a year.
The only way I like to use it is with JAVA and not object C. Right now you can use ObjC and C++ together.
What this means is if you wanted to rewrite TNT with cocoa parts... say just the UI... it would be very easy.
Though I would stick with carbon

10. i also don't think TNT needs a full OOP system
only a few OOP concepts like encapsulation...
or some sudo oop objects...
like sprites are objects with art and things attatched
with different beaviors...

Thats it for now :)





















12-06-2001 20:27

Posted by:
Mark Tully

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Sorry I haven't replied to your feedback sooner Chris, looks like I've left myself a big job now ;)

Here goes:


Chris D said
Things that coem cose to AMOS or atleast the idea
since I have never played with it.

BANG! 2D
BANG! 3D ( These are mine )
Dim3D
Ricore
Real Basic


First off, can you tell me a little more about BANG!, you keep mentioning it but there's very little about it on your website and it sounds very interesting. Will it be like TNT Basic or is it more like a library you use when programming in C/C++?

I believe Dim3D is a 3D library that stores it's models in XML? I'm not sure how's that's similar to TNT Basic or am I missing something?

What's Ricore?

Real Basic, I've played with that, but I believe that that is more geared towards application development whereas TNT Basic is more geared towards games. Before you come back and say RB can do everything TNT Basic can, remember that we're going to stay focussed on game development while they stay focussed on app development; the differences in ideologies will soon become apparent.

You mention Dark Basic, it's very powerful but it's very difficult to use. The editor which came with it when I downloaded it was a dos based cruddy thing (although I believe there's a new one now available through 3rd party?). I believe we are easier to use as a package than dark basic, even though dark basic may currently have features we lack. We're not done yet though ;)


Jmagic... it out for PC.
a MAC and PC version were annouced about two years ago.

Right well in another 2 years time we might have a problem... ;)


Blitz basic

Yeah I had a look at this, I think they got dumped on when dark basic came out though, unlucky.


1. I think I would find TNT useless with out a debugger :-) and very frustrating if I was a beginner.

Yes, debuggers are valuable. There will be one soon.


2. Reource names.
Im under the impression that if I want to use a resource
in my code I need to reference it with a number...
example.... sudo code..

You can already do that, check your facts Chris! :P


3. I don't think dark basic is EVER coming to mac.
unless you know something different?

Oh good :)
I heard it was, but that was a long time ago now, maybe they cancelled.


4. To see a list of what people are looking for re through the old posts in the BANG! forum on
idevgames.com... B! being very much like TNT in concept.

Let me know when it comes out.


5. What do you have/ have planned for hardware acceleration?
Rave? Open GL?

Currently our blits to screen are hw accelerated, as for further development probably OpenGL over Rave. I believe Rave isn't on Mac OS X?


"As for holding the users hand more, I believe that holding their hand too much can stifle their creativity."

Incorrect...

I prefer "I disagree" ;)


Hand holding to ease the learning cure will get people up to speed and more creative faster.
What is really need is this...
Not hand hold on everything like say RB does.
But hand holding that scales down to very low level.
Easy of use that scales as the users experience and needs scale.
The easier it is to use in the first place the more people will play with it.
After that they will think of what they want to do and if you plan it right those features will be sitting there waiting.
It is like having multiple levels of abstraction for the IDE...
Examples...
1. Mostly point and click
2. Light event driven Scripting
3. Full game scripting
4. C/C++ plug ins.

I agree with what you are saying about scalability of handholding, that would be nice but it would take a lot of time to develop when we could be improving other things. We'd take 6 months bring it out and all our existing user base would see no improvement, although, as you point out, we might attract newer users.

We're keeping an eye on this for the feeling of all our users, they'll get what they ask for.


7. I would like it if you would regularly post a list of what your working on
and what is planned for the future.

When things settle down we might just do that.

And onto the next post...


1. If you add sprite rotation and open GL blitting...
Im not sure how you can still do pixel level hit detection
quickly...

Im working on this problem for B! right now

Let us know how you solve it :)


2. SEED issues...
not that I have tested anything but...
is TNT a compiler?
Or a byte code compiler?
or a interpreter?

Irrelevant to the end user surely.


3. Does TNt have the concept of reciveing
and posting events to objects?

Define what you mean by objects.


Basically a really good way to get speed it to eliminate
as much polling as you can.

We're quite aware of this.


4. Do you think you could make Project Magellan TNT?
See my company... http://www.plaidworld.com

Are the blitters fast enough to run at like 40fps
on a G3/233 at 16bit with multiple layers of parallax
and over draw?

Why don't you try it and see?

When will BANG! be ready, I'd quite like to see it. Do you use OpenGL to achieve your parallax effects?


5. What are you using to draw sprites,
example RLE in codeing?
6. What is TNT being written in... C/C++?


I appreciate your interest Chris but I don't want to get into a technical discussion in our feedback forum. Why not use TNT Basic for a bit. If you can figure it out, well done, if you can't then it obviously doesn't matter.


7. You missed answer my last big post :-)

Actually I've been typing this response for 24 hours now... :)


Also if you want to do games with right now and have fast sprite with alpha it is easiest to use RB3D

Until your BANG comes out of course ;)


9. Cocoa BITES... IMHO after using it for a year.
The only way I like to use it is with JAVA and not object C. Right now you can use ObjC and C++ together.
What this means is if you wanted to rewrite TNT with cocoa parts... say just the UI... it would be very easy.
Though I would stick with carbon

Yeah, I could write bits in Java, bits in Obj-C, bits in Pascal, and what the hell, I'll write bits in TNT Basic too :) But what's your point? What has this to do with TNT Basic?


10. i also don't think TNT needs a full OOP system
only a few OOP concepts like encapsulation...
or some sudo oop objects...
like sprites are objects with art and things attatched
with different beaviors...

I miss OO too, we'll see what we can do about that, but like John said, don't hold your breath, we have other things to do first.

Thanks for your feedback Chris, I appreciate your energy and I can't wait to see BANG!

Cheers

Mark

12-06-2001 20:28

Posted by:
Chris D

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Comments


Looking through the help...

Why are there commands like
Lower Case()

With a space in them?

when down below there are examples with poor spacing.

x=100

This is inconsistent.
If you are going to improve on BASIC and add more english like commands
do it everywhere.

There is nothing to gain by type code that looks like

x=x+5*(y*5)^2

when

x = x + 5 * ( y *5 ) ^ 2

is more readable.

White space is your friend.
And taking it all out does not make the program run faster.

When doing math on paper you don't write x=x you write x = x...

Why do people insist on doing it on a computer......

12-06-2001 20:34

Posted by:
Mark Tully

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This thread is getting very very large Chris, when you start a new topic, please start a new thread also.

The command "lower case" has a space in it because in english it is two words and in TNT Basic's language it is also two words.

Some people like spaces, some don't.

As for mathematical equations, there's nothing to stop you putting spaces all throughout your code! We just prefer not have space in equations, it's a matter of preference Chris, you do it your way and I'll do it mine.

12-06-2001 20:38

Posted by:
Chris D

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Comments

C and C++ style comments would be really nice.

12-07-2001 02:05

Posted by:
Chris D

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Follow up...

>What's Ricore?
>What is Bang!?

Go to the idegames forums and you will see web boards devoted to them.

Ricroe is a Mac/Win32 Open GL based game library you hook together with C++.
It uses plug ins for most everything I think.

>Will it be like TNT Basic or is it more like a library you use when programming in C/C++?

BANG! 2D and BANG! 3D... abrev... B!
are Mac/Win 2D and 3D RAD studios for making games.

B! 2D is very similar in concept to TNT.
It has simple BASIC byte code interpreter.
B! is written in RB + custom C++ plug ins.

B! has a these integrated tools/editor in the IDE
1. debugger
2. script editor with auto indenting and syntax coloring
3. motion path editor... lines and spline
4. drag and drop sprite editor
5. compound sprites
6. simple event based object interactions...
7. Quicktime movie play back for movies and flash animation etc.
8. map editor with griding of different sizes, and 8? layers of parallax

Lets see the IDE is basically all drag and drop.
All scripts and project files are plain text so that they can be edited by hand or in BBedit etc.
All files are cross platform.
RB makes the IDE cross platform.
Project files and scripts etc can be shared with other people.

Most object interaction happens when event are triggered.
Basically if this event runs then run this script.

There is a sudo OOP approach to the language and object interaction.

B! is geared towards making SNES style games.

It currently runs with RB for sprite but I have done heavy testing of that for speed issues.
Im probably going to add in in my cross platform ( Software, RAVE, GL, D3D ) 3D engine to provide
3D acceleration etc down the road.

>I believe Dim3D is a 3D library that stores it's models in XML?
>I'm not sure how's that's similar to TNT Basic or am I missing something?

Dim is a RAD studio consisting of a number of parts.
It stores everything in XML, models, worlds etc.
The file format is open and other people are using it and the modeler for thing.
The modelers handle world building and object animation etc.
It is Open GL based and only runs on X right now.
It uses Netscapes open source JavaScript engine for scripting.
And Scruffy 3 in 3D is being made with it right now.

Im going to redo scruffy 2 in 2D in some form using B! BTW... if any remembers scruffy 2???

>Real Basic, I've played with that, but I believe that that is more geared towards
>application development whereas
>TNT Basic is more geared towards games.

Correct.
RB does at this point have a rather slow but cross platform sprite system.
The speed actually matter less and less and CPUs have improved a lot...
It more a matter of how you use it.
But it lacks alpha channels etc.

RB also have RB3D now and this is Quesa ala QuickDraw 3D intergrated into it.
This means it can run on Mac/Win/Linux using open gl or D3D or what ever in the near future...
In this next year.

>Before you come back and say RB can do everything TNT Basic can, remember
>that we're going to stay focussed >on game development while they stay focussed
>on app development; the differences in ideologies will soon become apparent.

Perfect.
Actually a bunch of things are missing from RB to makes games it alone fully.
Eventually it will be able to but since it is not game focused that will always be an after thought.

>You mention Dark Basic, it's very powerful but it's very difficult to use. The editor which
>came with it when I downloaded it was a dos based cruddy thing (although I believe
>there's a new one now available through 3rd party?).

Correct.

>I believe we are easier to use as a package than dark basic, even though dark basic may
>currently have features we lack. We're not done yet though ;)

Oh god ... yes your IDE is nice and so far above dark basics its not even funny.


>Jmagic... it out for PC.
>a MAC and PC version were annouced about two years ago.

>Right well in another 2 years time we might have a problem... ;)

BTW Im talking in general not as if to challenge you with these other things or even B!...
I do want to make sure you are aware of them all...

>Blitz basic

>Yeah I had a look at this, I think they got dumped on when
>dark basic came out though, unlucky.

Web sites look rather active to me..
I think it might do 3D now.
Looks nice.. I think its a real compiler among other things.

>1. I think I would find TNT useless with out a debugger :-) and very
>frustrating if I was a beginner.

>Yes, debuggers are valuable. There will be one soon.

GREAT! :-)


>2. Reource names.
>Im under the impression that if I want to use a resource
>in my code I need to reference it with a number...
>example.... sudo code..

>You can already do that, check your facts Chris! :P

Read that again.
I said Im under the impression aka I could be wrong etc.
Basically Im asking you if that is true or not at this time.
Im glad to see it is.

>3. I don't think dark basic is EVER coming to mac.
>unless you know something different?

>Oh good :)
>I heard it was, but that was a long time ago now,
>maybe they cancelled.

Hmm I do know they made some other kind of visual RAD IDE.
Found it off there message boards.
It might be that they kind of abandoned Dark Basic.
I would have to look...

I do like there name though :-)

>4. To see a list of what people are looking for re through the old
>posts in the BANG! forum on
>idevgames.com... B! being very much like TNT in concept.

Let me know when it comes out.

I already added one of your to my mailing list... I just didn't tell you yet ;-)


>5. What do you have/ have planned for hardware acceleration?
>Rave? Open GL?

>Currently our blits to screen are hw accelerated

Again using what? CopyBits?
That and draw sprockets are only guarrenteed on some newer hardware... so I was wondering?

>as for further development probably OpenGL over Rave.
>I believe Rave isn't on Mac OS X?

RAVE is 9 only.
But its easy to make a render independant 3D engine.
Why do that?
RAVE is a lot faster then GL on older macs say with a Rage Pro etc.
Also GL I believe still does not allow 16bit textures on some cards like Rage Pro etc.
32bit textures are really slow on slower hardware.

Also I should add the adding RAVE support is trivial... really really easy...
You might get it done in a day...

>"As for holding the users hand more, I believe that holding their hand too much can stifle their creativity."

>Incorrect...

>I prefer "I disagree" ;)

Ok :)

>Hand holding to ease the learning cure will get people up to speed and more creative faster.
>What is really need is this...
>Not hand hold on everything like say RB does.
>But hand holding that scales down to very low level.
>Easy of use that scales as the users experience and needs scale.
>The easier it is to use in the first place the more people will play with it.
>After that they will think of what they want to do and if you plan it right those features will be sitting there waiting.
I>t is like having multiple levels of abstraction for the IDE...
>Examples...
>1. Mostly point and click
>2. Light event driven Scripting
>3. Full game scripting
>4. C/C++ plug ins.

>I agree with what you are saying about scalability of handholding, that
>would be nice but it would take a lot of time to develop when we could
>be improving other things. We'd take 6 months bring it out and all our existing
>user base would see no improvement, although, as you point out, we might
>attract newer users.

I do really wonder just how big the user base for these products are.
I think I have maybe 20 people signed up for my mailing list.

But I think that almost everyone will jump on what ever the easiest IDE that scales well and the rest will be left behind... I don't think there is a big market for any of these things IDEs...

We're keeping an eye on this for the feeling of all our users, they'll get what they ask for.

>7. I would like it if you would regularly post a list of what your working on
>and what is planned for the future.

>When things settle down we might just do that.

Kewl :)

1. If you add sprite rotation and open GL blitting...
Im not sure how you can still do pixel level hit detection
quickly...

Im working on this problem for B! right now

Let us know how you solve it :)

I may just stick with Rect only hit detection.
That is what most SNES games where I think.
But by allowing compound sprites this even outs well.

3. Does TNt have the concept of reciveing
and posting events to objects?

Define what you mean by objects.

I look in the manual and it does not work like that...

>4. Do you think you could make Project Magellan TNT?
>See my company... http://www.plaidworld.com

>Are the blitters fast enough to run at like 40fps
>on a G3/233 at 16bit with multiple layers of parallax
>and over draw?

>Why don't you try it and see?

Seriousely I don't have time...
I may run some test with TNT later on to help review it for Idevgames...

I was really wondering if you had run any test on the scale of what the PM engine can do?
If you get anywhere close you speed is way good :-)

>When will BANG! be ready, I'd quite like to see it. Do you use OpenGL to achieve your parallax effects?

Well... make sure there is no confusion PM was not made with B!.
Mouse House will be are first test game for B!.

The PM engine uses a RLE sprite drawing system with most things aligned to LONGs.
PM does this...
Load PICTs from resfile.
draws them to a Gworld.
If the game is running in 8Bit then a custom CLUT is made and handed to the GWORLD
which dithers it down very nicely.
the GWORLD is then RLE encoded with the topleft corner of the picture determining the
Blue screen color.

I probably put a bunch more info in the PM manual.
BTW ...PM being like 4 years old now...

>5. What are you using to draw sprites,
> example RLE in codeing?

> Also if you want to do games with right now and have fast sprite
> with alpha it is easiest to use RB3D

> Until your BANG comes out of course ;)

Of course ;)

> 9. Cocoa BITES... IMHO after using it for a year.
> The only way I like to use it is with JAVA and not object C. Right
> now you can use ObjC and C++ together.
> What this means is if you wanted to rewrite TNT with cocoa parts...
> say just the UI... it would be very easy.
> Though I would stick with carbon

> Yeah, I could write bits in Java, bits in Obj-C, bits in Pascal, and what the
> hell, I'll write bits in TNT Basic too :) But what's your point?
> What has this to do with TNT Basic?

Actually this went along with another post that said something like you wanted to stick to carbon.
Im pointing out that there is nothing really binding most of your code to carbon at this point if you
ever want to move it. Im not sure your aware the ObjC++ is out now etc.

> 10. i also don't think TNT needs a full OOP system
> only a few OOP concepts like encapsulation...
> or some sudo oop objects...
>ike sprites are objects with art and things attatched
> with different beaviors...

I miss OO too, we'll see what we can do about that, but like John said, don't hold your breath, we have other things to do first.

Thanks for your feedback Chris, I appreciate your energy and I can't wait to see BANG!

Small chance of alphas by or around X-mas.
But I might wait till I get it mostly perfect.
I have two weeks on vacation coming up and I hope to mostly work on B! :)


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