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09-14-2005 12:48

Posted by:
Jacob

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San Francisco, CA

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TNT should use OpenGL's image rotating, scaling, ect.

09-15-2005 01:05

Posted by:
matteo

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Venice, ITALY!

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it does already in hardware mode. It also does it pretty well. (I think it's one of the strengths of TNT)

09-16-2005 21:52

Posted by:
Mark Tully

Location:
TNT HQ, England

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As matteo said, it does already. We need to do a review of hardware mode after 1.3 is out, it's definitely slower than it should be.... Hmmm....

09-16-2005 23:15

Posted by:
Jacob

Location:
San Francisco, CA

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Yes it is:

My idea woud be to combine the two modes into one.

09-17-2005 18:12

Posted by:
allnodcoms

Location:
hertfordshire (England)

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What will probably happen is that the API wil be reduced to a single set of calls, and the interpreter (or compiler!) will pick the best option for the hardware it's executed on at run time. It's how most things do it, so makes sense to run TNT the same way...
The graphics side of the engine is definitly the fist priority for the Open Source treatment, we've got a great set of calls, they just don't work too well at the moment. I'm drawing up a list of requests that we've had so far (as well as doing a few other things!) so keep 'em rolling in, we do listen, and though they may not all be answered in 1.3 they will be addressed when it goes OS. We are talking a seriously large bit of code here, and it takes some time to get it ready for publc consumption...

Danny (nods)

09-18-2005 17:48

Posted by:
Jae Rune

Location:
Cheyenne, WY

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Actually, that's an equally poor decision there, to let the interpreter decide. I mean, it's good for basic programming, but there should be a way that the coder can let the user choose what is best for their machine.

Too often I've had something trying to render in software mode because it just *assumes* for me that my GeForce 2 MX doesn't properly support OpenGL. But all the calls they're using are supported just fine.

I think it's good to bear in mind that the more flexible the end product (compiled product) is, the more likely it is to gain favor amongst users and in turn gain favor for the platform itself.

Hence the need to retain Window and Full Screen options, Hardware and Software rendering options, the ability to set screen size and quality levels, etc etc.

If we're to make Mac a viable gaming platform, we cannot slouch on the basics.

09-22-2005 19:20

Posted by:
Mark Tully

Location:
TNT HQ, England

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Although window mode won't support this in TB 1.3, I think having it so built programs can optionally allow allow the user to switch between full screen and window mode during play - sort of like the StarCraft or Unreal games allow. The user preferences could be automatically saved allow the game to restore them next time.

A similar philsophy could be applied to the choice between graphics mode hardware and software. If your program is using software graphics mode the user could optionally switch to hardware mode if they've got some ninja graphics card.

So the programs specify the defaults and the user can override them. Some programs may not want to allow override - but we could allow programs to opt out if they require - kind of like the disable break command allows opting out of cmd-. quitting.

Just a thought.

Mark

09-22-2005 22:07

Posted by:
Jae Rune

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Cheyenne, WY

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Sounds good to me. The more flexible the end product is, the better it reflects the development environment and platform as a whole.

11-19-2005 19:04

Posted by:
Jason Anderson

Location:
Doylestown, PA

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I want to see Mode 7 scaling and rotation.

This was used very often in the SNES days. The main use was for games like Mario Kart and F-Zero as well as later in Final Fantasy 6 (3 in the US) for maps and tracks. It was also used in simpler ways (Which TNT already does) in games like Mario World with the final boss zooming and rotating. But we already have that. I'd love to see a way to do Mode 7 for tracks and maps though.

I hope we can see Mode 7 soon.

11-20-2005 00:59

Posted by:
someone

Location:
Quebec ( Canada )

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nowadays you're much better do 3d than mode 7

11-20-2005 07:13

Posted by:
Jason Anderson

Location:
Doylestown, PA

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Hey, when TNT can do actual 3D games, then you can talk. Until then, all I want is Mode 7 for making flat surfaces spread out like a table top. It would really really make my RPG more interesting.

11-20-2005 13:18

Posted by:
allnodcoms

Location:
hertfordshire (England)

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Un-necessary?

That was a bit off... Mathew was just saying it as it is. Mode-7 is an outdated principle now as 3D engines can do exactly the same thing, only better and faster. Graphic cards are built to handle 3D, and Mode-7 was a way of getting pseudo 3D in the days when Hardware T&L was nothing more than a pipe dream. If you want a flat plane with a scrolling texture on it, you would be much better off using a real 3D engine and letting OpenGL handle the perspective projections. If you really want to get into Mode-7 though you could check out this link.

So at the end of the day Mathew was right. But have fun playing...

Danny (nods)

11-20-2005 18:57

Posted by:
Jason Anderson

Location:
Doylestown, PA

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I hope I didn't seem rude. It was not my intention. What I'm trying to say is, and I'll be blunt, but 2D gaming is what is outdated. I just want to see TNT evolve. If it could do simple 3D stuff, it would kick so much ass. At the end of the day, it's the only thing that appeals to the average gamer these days.

I'm not talking about high resolution super realism. But at least some simple 3D from the 90's. Like Mode 7 and Super FX style stuff. Stuff like that wouldn't be too processor intensive and could be achieved by the end user by very simple commands. I mean all you'd need is a Rotate Canvas Mode 7 x,y,z command where the 0's are the axis rotation values. Or Scale Sprite Mode 7 sprite,x,y,z command for placing sprites on the newly rotated canvas. Then take it a little further by adding Mode 7 Triangle x,y,z, x1,y1,z1 to x2,y2,z2 to x3,y3,z3 where x y z are the rotation of the triangle, x1, x2, x3 etc are the coordinates of each vertice. The color would be set by Set Pen Color. Et cetera. (Every 3D polygon is made up of Triangles. Lots and lots of Triangles. Even with only a few triangles you could accomplish StarFox quality games.)

I just want TNT to evolve. Now that it's becoming open source, I'm excited. I am hoping some genius programmers will take it to new levels. And 3D would be a great place to start. And as I showed above, it wouldn't be all that hard for the programmer if implemented correctly. It'd be some of the easiest to do 3D ever created. Heck, you could even have a way to create the polygons ahead of time (Polygon Editor next to the Music and Maps tabs) that could be loaded and unloaded on the fly as if they were sprites. And using Moan, you could set up animations.

11-20-2005 22:36

Posted by:
allnodcoms

Location:
hertfordshire (England)

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No worries...

It just came across as a bit harsh to me, I should really of let Mathew reply.

I see what you're saying about 3D, but I don't think that by adding 10-15yr old features to TNT we'd be progressing it any. The focus for TNT initially must be to get the calls we already have working properly, and enhancing the current feature set to make it more useable. Once we've got the existing set working we can look at more advanced uses for the system, and 3D will definitely be one of them (though one in a long list I have to say!). Mode-7 would be, as you hinted at, a temporary thing to bridge the gap between the existing 2D calls and a proper 3D engine (which would be capable of Mode-7 style graphics anyway), so I don't really see a benefit. The link I posted (and the next in the series, see the 'next' button in the top right of that page) give good examples of how the system works, and TNT's math calls are as quick as any SNES, so implementing in code is a real possibility. Look at how much faster a Mac is than a 10+ year old console...

If you're interested in trying it then keep us informed, but I don't think you'll see the sort of calls you are describing, unless the Open Source version starts using plug-ins. They are a bit of a niche market and I think most people would agree that a full blown 3D engine would be a better use of people's time.
But heh, this is Open Source so who knows! If anyone out there fancies dabbling in Mode-7, drop us a line. Never say never!

Danny (nods)

11-21-2005 00:12

Posted by:
someone

Location:
Quebec ( Canada )

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Hi, i didn't take it badly don't worry ;)

i meant, i've been using OpenGL for a while for building 3d games, and it's very powerul and fairly easy to use if you don't intend to do some high-end game with killer performances

so my thought is that mode 7 was when 3d cars didn't exist. now that we have awesome tools like OpenGL, implementing 3D would be almost as easy as implementing mode 7, so i don,t see why we should waste our time on mode 7 when 3D can be done easily. (when TNT is ready to go theer of course - for now juste making 2D better is a good point)

11-21-2005 00:14

Posted by:
someone

Location:
Quebec ( Canada )

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obviously, i meant 3d cards not 3d cars

11-21-2005 00:43

Posted by:
Jason Anderson

Location:
Doylestown, PA

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Where can I get one of them 3D cars? ;-)

Well, if 3D can be implemented just as easily, when can we expect it? I really really really want to see TNT evolve. I'm not expecting TNT to become a replacement for tools used to create games like Quake. But at least some simple 3D would be great.

At least let us rotate sprites in 3D space. Even the best 2D games have some 3D elements in them.

11-21-2005 14:17

Posted by:
someone

Location:
Quebec ( Canada )

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> when can we expect it?

when someone implements it ;)

actually it could be done but i guess doing 3D before 2D works fine wouldn't be a great idea

on the other hand when TNT is ready i'm sure people will start implementing 3D stuff (and if no one does i'll try!)

11-22-2005 12:51

Posted by:
allnodcoms

Location:
hertfordshire (England)

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3D will come...

TNT will have 3D capabilities, but first we do need to get the 2D sorted. 3D will obviously make heavy use if the hardware, and I don't know if you've spotted but TNT and hardware don't exactly go hand in hand the moment (Doh!), and this is the OpenGL layer that we will be relying on for all that complex rendering...
TNT will evolve, but it will take time. The Open Source decision was a brave one, and we have yet to see if this will pay off or not, but if it does then the whole thing is there for people to take in pretty much any direction they want. 3D is a popular request, but as Mathew says (and I've hinted at elsewhere) the current features must be spot on and bug free first so that we can go ahead and build on solid foundations.
So, again as Mathew pointed out, you can expect it when it's implemented, but please do remember that no-one's actually seen any source code yet...

Danny (nods)

11-23-2005 00:20

Posted by:
matteo

Location:
Venice, ITALY!

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I think 3d is out of place in TNTbasic. 3D is not that easy, and I think once you want to do 3d games it's the time to switch to opengl & C++.

TNT should concentrate on 2d only imo

11-23-2005 00:48

Posted by:
someone

Location:
Quebec ( Canada )

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matteo, we're not talking about making the next DOOM in TNT... just display a map with perspective, or have a spaceship that could rotate, etc. - just simple things

11-23-2005 07:42

Posted by:
allnodcoms

Location:
hertfordshire (England)

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I spend far too much time agreeing with Mathew...

People are going to talk! 8)

BUT, again I've got to say he's sort of right, take a look at DarkBasic, Blitz, GameMaker 6, Torque... the list goes on. I know they're not all Mac products but they do fall in the category of 'the competition'. TNT was inspired by a program called AMOS that ran on the AMIGA over ten years ago, and even that had 3D capabilities! Not bad for an 8 MHz machine with 512k RAM and no hard drive... TNT can do it, and in time I think it should, just not yet. It's not a feature I would personally use but there are plenty of other people out there who would, so I think that if the requests are there we should look into it, or at least not rule it out. Anyway, that's a long way down the road yet...

Danny (nods)

11-25-2005 15:21

Posted by:
DanLurie

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Earth>USA>New Jersey>Clifton>My Chair

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If there is one thing about TNT that drove me up the wall (Metal, too) its commands with spaces in them.

I'm sure it makes the interpreter more complicated to write, too.

11-25-2005 15:35

Posted by:
allnodcoms

Location:
hertfordshire (England)

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It does...

Adds a bit of extra code, but nothing too costly. But I don't like it either. The other thing is the word 'to' in parameter lists... But heh, it's BASIC.

Danny (nods)

11-25-2005 17:29

Posted by:
Jason Anderson

Location:
Doylestown, PA

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Actually, I like the spaces in certain commands. It actually makes writing and remembering commands easier.

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